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U.S Launches Airstrikes in Syria


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#41 omahacolt

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 12:17 PM

It's all fucked up. Develop our own energy sources and stay the fuck out of the middle East.

our own energy sources? Aren't we trying to bring back coal for some stupid reason?

Clean energy is for pussies

#42 xen

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 02:35 PM

our own energy sources? Aren't we trying to bring back coal for some stupid reason?

Clean energy is for pussies


Nice passive aggressiveness there Einstein.

Lots of options. Building safe nuclear plants would be a good start.
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#43 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:51 AM

How did he directly affect the U.S.?

the difference is, nobody in the syrian conflict on either side represented imminent danger to the region.

 

hitler had demonstrated a grave danger to europe since 1938... yet we didn't get into it with him until 1942. 

 

as stated, syria/hitler is a bad comparison



#44 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:54 AM

A few people in Lebanon might disagree, but you're right that Assad doesn't directly threaten the USA.  The moral/ethical question is whether we stand by while massive numbers of civilians are murdered.  People are even more outraged when poison gas is used on kids.  Trump's reaction was meant to send a message and was really a minimum risk.  No Americans in danger.  Russians given warning so none of their planes were hit.  Precision Tomahawks for little collateral damage.  If it stops Assad from some atrocities, then it's worth it.  Little downside and probably more respect from some quarters.  The real test is not to get sucked further into an unwinnable conflict.  I think Trump is aware of useless entanglements and won't push it at this point.  He'd already announced that his policy wasn't to oust Assad.

both sides are committing atrocities in the syrian civil war.

 

we are neither morally nor ethically obligated to protect every human being on the planet.

 

it can't be done



#45 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:58 AM

Meh. China and Russia both have done lots worse to many more people in their own population and we do Jack squat. The only difference is syria is an easier target. Hell women are being targeted in Africa and we don't do shit.

Yeah it sucks but we can't police the world.

Be wary of foreign entanglements. Good advice from our first president in his farewell address. Would have saved us a lot of trouble over the years if we'd have listened.

Of course he also warned of the danger of factions (meaning political parties) and public debt.

Whoops.

Actually, by 'factions' GW and many of the founders were worried about the rights of the individual being squashed by a tyranny of ANY majority, large or small. Publius (James Madison) writes:

 

"By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.
 
There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.
There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.
It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.
 
The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties.
 
The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government."


#46 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:09 AM

It's all fucked up. Develop our own energy sources and stay the fuck out of the middle East.

let europe deal with it

 

for once



#47 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:10 AM

Nice passive aggressiveness there Einstein.

Lots of options. Building safe nuclear plants would be a good start.

coal is not as bad for the environment as the chicken littles want you to think



#48 omahacolt

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:11 AM

let europe deal with it

for once

that is what I said as well

#49 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:12 AM

that is what o said as well

hardly

 

he talked big talk, then let everyone walk all over him

 

talk about pussy...



#50 omahacolt

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:15 AM

hardly

he talked big talk, then let everyone walk all over him

talk about pussy...

autocorrect put o in there. I fixed it. Sorry for the confusion

#51 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:19 AM

autocorrect put o in there. I fixed it. Sorry for the confusion

:lol:  :lol:

 

I was on a roll dammit



#52 wilkie

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 06:05 AM

As long as this remains a one time deal,  I think it is okay.  We registered a protest and took out a few airplanes.   I do NOT want this to be a routine thing when something that displeases us overseas can count on us sending tomahawk missiles.  He should have checked with Congress.   It wouldn't have taken a full debate.   But it did not require an immediate retaliatory response from us and we had time to form a consensus.   If we keep doing this,  the odds extend exponentially each time that we will shoot down a Russian airplane.

 

And that moment,  Donald Trump is going to need to draw on Congressional approval for the original and pray such an incident doesn't elevate.



#53 jetlord

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:21 PM

As long as this remains a one time deal,  I think it is okay.  We registered a protest and took out a few airplanes.   I do NOT want this to be a routine thing when something that displeases us overseas can count on us sending tomahawk missiles.  He should have checked with Congress.   It wouldn't have taken a full debate.   But it did not require an immediate retaliatory response from us and we had time to form a consensus.   If we keep doing this,  the odds extend exponentially each time that we will shoot down a Russian airplane.

 

And that moment,  Donald Trump is going to need to draw on Congressional approval for the original and pray such an incident doesn't elevate.

How can any human equate gassing women, kids, and babies with "something that displeases us"?  Forming a consensus and dealing with congress is nothing more than ensuring inaction.  Maybe the strike has no effect.  Then money was wasted.  Maybe it causes Russia and Assad to back off from some of the worst atrocities.  Then it was a good thing.  I see no indication that it signals that the US is going to make a habit of sending in tomahawks for any old excuse.  Obama cut a deal to deny Assad chem weapons and it was ignored by the other side.  The same is probably true with the Iranian deal.  Weakness only inspires more aggression and Trump was tested.  At very low risk, he responded.  Let's save the hand wringing until we see the long term results.


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#54 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:15 PM

I get what you're saying jet... but we have already seen how spending American lives and treasure trying to 'make safe' these shitholes is an utter waste.

 

Everyone is outraged about the gas attack, and of the 70-some victims.

 

Gas is certainly a horrible way to die, but so is getting gut shot or blown to smithereens. There have been 200,000 syrian deaths in this civil war, women, kids and babies, and the US can't do a damned thing about it.

 

Iraq proved that, did it not?

 

It's the same problem I have with the useless 'solutions' that the lefties constantly ram down our throats to solve poverty, healthcare, climate, and failing schools. Symbolism over substance.

 

Sure, we're all offended by what we see out of the mid east on TV. But the reality is, we only make things worse, at a hell of a cost.

 

I would challenge you to name a mid-east culture we've improved with military action, but you already know the answer my friend.

 

wilkie's favorite George Santayana quote is more important than ever: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”



#55 oldtimer

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 02:59 PM

let me ask this. IF we did nothing or took the Obama/Clinton/Kerry approach while the rest of the world looked to the U.S for some real tangible leadership in this matter would we of not of been considered the  same way we were before, somebody that cant be depended on?

 

What kind of leadership  would be suggested in this case if not what was done? What would have to happen  and what type of reaction would it take to be 100% acceptable to show our Friends and Enemies that there is a new sheriff in town and the US is ready to lead from the front?

 

 Free World Leadership and being the World's Policeman to a certain extent are intertwined together.  I don't see where you can have one without the other....Is there a perfect balance? I don't think so.



#56 NChiefsCorner

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 03:09 PM

We have 500 or so troops on the ground in Syria, so we had a national security interest.



#57 oldtimer

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 03:18 PM

We have 500 or so troops on the ground in Syria, so we had a national security interest.

 

 

 that is a good point..its not as if the missile strike in opening any door that was not already opened with what Obama promised to be a No Boots on the Ground commitment.



#58 mex

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 04:00 PM

Good points OT, and that's the question. Do we have the ability to be the world's police? 

 

IMO the world doesn't look to us for leadership... they look to us for money. There's very little respect for the US abroad.

 

Hell, there's very little respect for the US right here at home. You see it in our classrooms, our campuses, and in whatever protests du jour where people are bitching about whatever. I go to my son's graduation from law school, and they do not fly the US flag because it might offend indigenous people. But they had TWO mexican flags, because there were two illegal immigrants who graduated (on the backs of the taxpayers of course) and wanted to boast about it.

 

It's been demonstrated time and again we have no influence in that region, as evidenced in Iraq and Afghan. Those cultures have no comprehension of freedom or democracy... nor do they desire it. They have embraced totalitarian regimes for 2500 years, since Cyrus the Great.

 

This may not be a fair comparison, but they remind me of prisoners who have been in jail so long that when they are set free they can't handle it... and end up going back to prison because it's all they know.

 

The question that begs to be asked is, what differentiates syria from iraq? The minute we drew down our troop presence, iraq went to hell. How can anyone in their right mind think syria will have a different outcome?

 

I'm all for being the world's leader in promoting freedom and free markets. I'm not convinced we have the power to force everyone in the world to get along, at gunpoint.



#59 jetlord

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 05:43 PM

I get what you're saying jet... but we have already seen how spending American lives and treasure trying to 'make safe' these shitholes is an utter waste.

 

Everyone is outraged about the gas attack, and of the 70-some victims.

 

Gas is certainly a horrible way to die, but so is getting gut shot or blown to smithereens. There have been 200,000 syrian deaths in this civil war, women, kids and babies, and the US can't do a damned thing about it.

 

Iraq proved that, did it not?

 

It's the same problem I have with the useless 'solutions' that the lefties constantly ram down our throats to solve poverty, healthcare, climate, and failing schools. Symbolism over substance.

 

Sure, we're all offended by what we see out of the mid east on TV. But the reality is, we only make things worse, at a hell of a cost.

 

I would challenge you to name a mid-east culture we've improved with military action, but you already know the answer my friend.

 

wilkie's favorite George Santayana quote is more important than ever: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

Where we disagree is in equating a single missal strike in Syria with an invasion in Iraq with the goal of regime change.  I'm certainly not in favor of adding more troops in Syria or taking out the government although bringing Assad to justice sounds like a worthwhile goal.  Sending a message to him and his Russian sponsors that we won't stand by for genocide or war crimes is a whole different game.  If no more gas attacks happen in the near future, then Trump hit the right formula.  Maybe it will have no effect on Assad.  Then it did nothing.  I think those who believe this is the start of a "Syrian quagmire" are over reacting.  Peace through strength is more than just a slogan.  It works much better than peace through appeasement like we've seen in the past eight years in Egypt, Lybia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and any other Arab Spring locales.  We haven't improved any culture in the region with military action, but like Israel, the threat might keep the lid on some really nasty characters.



#60 West

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 06:01 PM

we have over 1000 troops in Syria.

 

We are not the worlds police force....But you do not need to be policemen if you have drones and cruise missiles.

 

You just need to determine if you want to make a stand as a country.  The message trump sent was loud and clear and the message was not just to Assad.

 

You have crazy ass people in North Korea and Iran right now.  Russia is totally out of control.

 

All Trump did was send a message to the world.  You want to act like an asshole, we may have a say in it.

 

w






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